Strumming “Invisible Strings”: An Interview with Kristie Frederick-Daugherty by Anushka Bidani

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*This interview has been edited for clarity.

Anushka Bidani: I think it’s good to start from the beginning. So, how did you get into Taylor Swift?

Kristie Frederick-Daugherty: How did I start loving her? This was in 2006, and my daughter, Ellie, who’s always loved music—she’s 27, a singer-songwriter now. She’s trying to make it, but it’s a hard field. She was playing the radio, and I heard this voice and I said, Ellie, who is that! She said, it’s a new singer, Taylor Swift and it was the song, “Teardrops On My Guitar.” And I know this sounds so crazy but, it was just so different and so good. Ellie told me all about her, she knew everything, and from that moment on my daughter and I have been huge fans. We actually attended the first night of Taylor’s first headline tour. It was Fearless, and her first stop happened to be in Evansville, Indiana right here where we live. Ellie and I were at that show.

AB: That’s special.

KFD: We have been fans from the very beginning.

AB: For your daughter, I’m sure she (Swift) must have been inspirational because she’s also trying to break into music, and it seems like a similar age bracket too.

KFD: Yes, absolutely. Ellie will be 28 in January, and Taylor will be 34 in December; similar age group. Ellie really looked up to her growing up, she was even Taylor Swift for Halloween once. Taylor has grown with my daughter, Ellie’s done the same thing with writing about boyfriends in high school, and now the writing has matured. So it’s been really good, yeah, Taylor has been a big inspiration for my daughter. My daughter also really loves Lana Del Rey, but that would make sense.

AB: What kind of a relationship do you have with Swift?

KFD: As a poet—I’m a poet, I’ll have my PhD in the Spring—I have always loved her music, but I have also been fascinated with the way she is a true poet, with a true poet’s sensibilities. And when Folklore hits, and then evermore, and then following Midnights, and then with The Tortured Poets [Department], my respect for her songwriting just grows with every album. So I approach her with a poet’s sensibility and really admire the moves she makes lyrically. In the foreword to the book, Sir Jonathan Bate, who is the world’s leading Shakespeare scholar, talks about how she’s a true poet. He compares her to Dickinson, Plath, to these greats of poetry.

AB: How did this anthology come to life? Because you, yourself, have been doing a lot of scholarship around Swift, for a number of years.

KFD: Yes, I have. I started my PhD, and started seeing how many colleges and universities were offering classes on Taylor. And I thought, this is ripe for a dissertation topic – how her lyrics intersect with poetry. The first paper I presented was in November of 2023 at Indiana University, on how the protagonist in Midnights compares to female protagonists that are being written about today, how they construct to deconstruct. And also, how for today’s females, unlike in history, sometimes we have so many choices available to us that it becomes overwhelming.

That was my first paper, and then I presented it at the Swiftposium at University of Melbourne, Australia and talked more there about her lyrics as poetry. Then I recently presented at the Southwest Pop Culture Association and I was on a panel where we discussed her five stages of grief playlist, that she’s recently dropped. That was really interesting. We talked about how Taylor is not afraid to recontextualise — with the ‘stages of grief’, as well as the mashups that she’s doing in her concerts. It’s adding a different context to her songs.

The idea of the anthology—actually the night of the Grammys in February, when Taylor was on stage and she won her Grammy, and she kind of ducked her head and said, and my new album, The Tortured Poets Department; it was like a light bulb just blew in my brain, and I thought: How can poetry, how can we grab this moment that Taylor is offering poetry with so much visibility?

And it just came to me. I just thought, contemporary poets writing to one of her songs without using direct lyrics, and then Swifties can have fun going into the poem and trying to puzzle out what the song is. What a great way for contemporary poets to get visibility. Because what Taylor has done, and this one of the big things that I talk about in my dissertation, is Taylor has taught millions of people how to close-read and how to analytically read. They are doing this work, and she has taught them that which is incredible. That’s an incredible thing for a pop star to be able to teach an entire fandom. And as poets, we’re hoping that this anthology can create a new set of readers for contemporary poetry because poetry is so often viewed as something inaccessible or highbrow or high academia. But contemporary poets are doing what Taylor does — it’s not like that at all. We’re really hoping that because of Taylor, there could be a Taylor Renaissance for poetry, where we get new readers. And, it’s not lost on any of us that Taylor has done some really, really good work in creating analytical readers.

AB: You’re right, I think decoding is very central to her relationship with the fans also. But I think what you are doing with the anthology, and I have this quote written, that is, each poem alludes to a song without using direct lyrics. And I think fan poetry usually is insert-poetry; poets will insert the lyrics and then they’ll try to create a poem around that. So this seems like a very unique process – could you shed some light on that?

KFD: That’s a good question. I guess the main inspiration for me was, going back to what I was saying, showing millions of people that they’re already doing the work of reading poetry. As a college professor, you say anything about poetry and so many people go, oh my gosh I don’t understand it. Taylor’s lyrics are poems — and you can enter into a poem just like you do with Taylor’s lyrics. I mean, it’s right there for you. It’s not cryptic. So my inspiration was thinking, how can I move her very smart and educated fan base to believe that they can also enjoy and get something from contemporary poetry. That’s why I thought to do it in this manner instead of taking the lyric and writing to it, or taking one of her titles and writing to it. And Swifties love a puzzle, they just love it. When she dropped the Spotify puzzle for the vault tracks of 1989, it broke the internet. How many puzzles was it? Was it like 34 million puzzles that were solved? I’m not sure if that’s the right number, but it was like 34 million or something solved in less than 24 hours. So I just have to credit Taylor, I was taking something she’s done by her constant use of dropping Easter eggs throughout her discography and leading her readers. Shakespeare says in Hamlet “by indirections find directions out” — so I have to totally credit the idea coming from Taylor, she set the scene for all of this.

AB: I think even on a formal level it seems very interesting because if you’re saying that a poem is inspired by one of her songs, but it’s not directly using the song, then it’s kind of implying that the song itself has some essence or some motif, that will make it recognisable through the poem.

KFD: Yes, that’s exactly right! And the poets, who are 113 of the best poets in the world! There’s six Pulitzer Prize winners, dozens of finalists — I was careful when I selected poets, so there are also emerging poets and there are Insta poets. I wanted it to do what we want the book to do – we don’t want to cancel anybody and say oh, that’s not poetry. That’s what we don’t want to do, and that’s what academia has done in some ways for too long and it’s not right. Poetry is rooted in song, and Sir Jonathan does such a nice job in the foreword discussing that.

But yes, poets have chosen many ways to allude to their song. There are words from songs in there, but it’s not a string of direct lyrics. Some poets did that. Some poets used many words from the song. Some poets went by theme, and wrote to that. It was so interesting to see, as the poems were returned to me, how the poets interpreted what it meant to respond [to Swift’s songs]. Because the level of poets they are, I gave them minimal instruction. It would have been insulting to be prescriptive. For those who didn’t know, I explained what Swift did; and I only said don’t use a string of direct lyrics, but do respond to the song. So it was quite interesting to see the many ways in which that was interpreted. And it will be interesting for the reader as well. For poetry lovers, if you’re not a Swiftie, it’s still an absolutely amazing book of poetry. I mean, it’s a slam dunk. These poets have outdone themselves.

And for the Swifties who do come to the book—I talk about that in my intro too—one poem might have five words from the song and you’re like, oh, absolutely, that’s “Cruel Summer.” But the next poem, it might be the theme so you’ll have to switch your thinking hat and look in a different way.

AB: Because of how big Swift’s celebrity has ballooned, I think it’s inevitable that everyone would have come into this having known who Taylor Swift is, having maybe heard one of the songs in passing. Were there poets who were casual fans or casual listeners, or just not as into Swift as maybe other people who were writing for the book?

KFD: It didn’t matter at all. At the end, I’m a fan. I’m a poet, I’m not nearly as big as most of these poets, I’m still emerging as well. Several of the poets in the book are in their seventies. Pulitzer Prize winners. Poets tend to veer older before they start winning a lot of awards. So, I went after my heroes. I went for [the poets] that line my shelves, and if they weren’t a Swiftie, it did not matter at all. It has brought the contributors so much joy. It has been such a joyous process. I have received amazing emails from the contributors, talking about what a joy it was to just claim that song and just play it and play it and play it and just inhabit it and write to it. It’s just been really magical. And they just kept saying yes! Like Diane Seuss, who won the Pulitzer two years ago – I had bothered her enough on Messenger over the last couple years, like a fangirl, that she and I had spoken some. So when I had the idea, I asked Diane, and I sent the message to her and I waited, and I saw three little dots on Messenger, and Diane said,— I had said, would you write a poem, I have this idea, and she said, yes. And here’s a list of poets. And then she wrote the magic sentence and said, and you may tell people I am contributing. So Diane is kind of our queen in the poetry world. And so then I just started asking. And it was just a yes after a yes after a yes from just the biggest poets. It was pretty, you know, with every yes, I just would scream in happiness. Pretty magical.

AB: Definitely. I also think what this work is going to do, is that with The Tortured Poets Department Swift has been trying to position herself as a poet. But there’s been a lot of backlash also because people say, oh, she’s just a musician, but she’s not a serious poet. She might have good melodies, but her lyrics are not up to the mark. But I think with a project like this, and such esteemed poets taking out the time to interact with her work, I feel like this is going to contribute to her legacy too, in many ways.

KFD: Thank you for that. That is really what I hope for, more than anything. I know she’s faced that. I remember with Speak Now, she wrote the entire thing by herself because of detractors and what they were wanting to say about it. And right here, you know, are 113 poets responding with a poem, validating any kind of worry; that she does not need to worry ever again, and I hope she doesn’t. At the end of the book, 14 poets wrote a little prose piece about their experience and they are very kind words about her and her lyrical genius. And that’s what the poets are saying – she is a lyrical genius. She’s a true poet, and that’s what we think. That’s what this group of 113 of the best poets in the world – that’s what we’re saying to Taylor. This book is a celebration of your genius. Pure and simple.

AB: What do you make of the backlash that she keeps facing because, even before this book there have been legends like Paul McCartney—pretty much the greatest songwriter of all time—who has repeatedly acknowledged Swift and her lyrical genius. And yet the backlash just keeps on coming. What do you make of it? Why are people so uninterested in acknowledging her genius?

KFD: That’s a really great question. When Bob Dylan won the Pulitzer, and Sir Jonathan talks about that, when he won the Pulitzer for literature for his songwriting, he faced backlash. A million things come to my brain at once but I’m not sure I really know…because it’s so opposite of what history shows us. It’s just perpetuating a myth that’s not true. For instance, Shakespeare – Shakespeare wasn’t highbrow. Shakespeare was a writer who traveled with a group of men, and he was the movies of his time. His plays are bawdy, and full of crass jokes. I don’t know why it is. Because stories like the Iliad, it was oral tradition. So why have we come around to wanting to eschew some things and not the others, I don’t know. Maybe it’s a lack of knowledge of people really understanding what Shakespeare did. Literally, he was writing furiously and if the crowd didn’t like it they’d throw vegetables and he’d write another one. And now, if you ask someone, they would think that Shakespeare is the elite of all but, yet, in his time he was doing what Taylor’s doing. He was traveling and performing his work; which is what Taylor’s doing — she is travelling and performing 44 of her songs. So, it’s interesting, but I really don’t know why it is we do that, why we want to gatekeep something. But it doesn’t serve. It doesn’t serve literature.

We want to break that down. And Taylor has offered such an opportunity to break that down, and say, yes, she’s a poet. And poets who write on Instagram – they are poets too. They are poets, this is poetry. I’m really hoping that this [book] helps. Because it’s a self-defeating thing for literature, because if you tell people that what they’re doing and what they’re listening to isn’t poetry – why are they going to want to come over and read a book of contemporary poetry? It doesn’t make sense. And that’s what I’m saying with this book – Taylor has done some hard, hard work. I mean, it’s tough to move people into the realm of analytical reading and close reading. That’s a tough thing, and she’s done it. And she’s done it with millions of people. And it’s something to be celebrated.

AB: I think she has served as an educational figure, and she has educated an entire generation of audience and her entire fandom. What other role do you think she has played in her fandom? What kind of other positions does she hold for them?

KFD: There was an article written, maybe a couple weeks ago, and it was talking about the cringe of Taylor Swift. And it was very, very positive. The article was saying that Taylor Swift is unabashedly unafraid to be who she is and to be excited about something. And one of her best quotes is when she says that, I think the worst kind of person is someone who makes someone else feel stupid for being excited about something. And I think she has freed a generation, generations of women and continues to, she’s freed them to have excitement for what they want to have excitement for. And that’s really amazing. I mean, I’m 48, but you know, when this idea came to my brain I thought, I think I shall ask Pulitzer Prize winners. That’s scary. But I literally thought of that quote by Taylor and thought, I’m just going to lead with my heart, I’m excited about this, I believe in it —and they responded. And I see other women who have done things outside of their comfort zones – Swifties, and we’ve talked about how Taylor has given us the courage to just lead with our hearts and not apologize for what it is we’re excited about. One of the poets who’s in the book, Jane Hirshfield, actually said that when she published a book, I think it was in the 80s, she said in the title was the word ‘heart’ and she was talking about how during that time there was sort of a cynicism in poetry against sentimentality, and she was talking about that very thing through her song, that it’s nice to see where love can be mentioned in a poem and it not be canceled. I remember as early as the early 2000s when I was in MFA school, and having to be really careful where you use the word ‘love’. Nobody wanted to be sentimental. How dare we be sentimental. And that’s switched. And I like it. It’s good. And I think Taylor’s had a big part in that.

AB: You remind me of an essay that went viral a few months ago. I think it was in the New Yorker. It was by someone writing from prison. And they were saying that Swift’s songs—you know the one?

KFD: Oh, yes. That is an amazing essay, I hope Taylor read that. That essay is so amazing. Yes, I love that essay. That is such a testament to Taylor. As a female pop star, it shows the genius of her lyrics, because they transcend and reach; someone who is in prison to a seven year old to seventy year olds at her concert. Her lyrics, they simply transcend. And that’s what great literature does, it transcends, and it stands the test of time, and she’s got that. She has it.

AB: Okay, I think to close this conversation, we can do a quick rapid fire. So what’s your favorite poem?

KFD: My favorite poem? Oh jeez, hard. Give me five seconds. My favourite poem—if I had to, oh man, that’s so hard—it’s a poem by Robin Behn, and let me make sure I’m saying the title right (hold on let me grab the book) because it’s like one of those long titles. She’s in my book actually, she—oh! I almost said too much.

AB: Oof!

KFD: Robin Behn, her last name is b-e-h-n. It’s from the book, Horizon note. It’s the last poem in her book. It’s “Postlude for Penny Whistle, Spoons, and Drum.” That is my favourite poem. She’s a wonderful poet. If you don’t know her, you should [definitely check her out]. She just hasn’t gotten the recognition I think that she should have. Her book won the Brittingham [Prize in Poetry]. I don’t think there’s many writing better than her today. Check her out if you can.

AB: Will do. An artist from history, it could be a musician, poet, painter who Swift reminds you of.

KFD: Emily Dickinson.

AB: Got it. A city you associate with Taylor Swift.

KFD: New York City.

AB: If there’s one Taylor Swift album that you could choose to be the soundtrack of your life.

KFD: Midnights.

AB: And if you ever met Swift, what is the first thing you would say to her?

KFD: Thank you.

AB: Got it. Thank you so much for your time. This was great.

KFD: Yeah, thank you. Nice to meet you, too!

Invisible Strings is now available to pre-order.

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Anushka Bidani is a cultural strategist by day, & a cricket enthusiast rest of the time. You can find her here.